Are Branded Goods Ever Worth The Cost?
About five weeks ago our 3 year old Hoover washing machine broke for the second time in its short life. The problem was the same as the first time it broke -- the concrete ballast had fallen to pieces. You know when it happens as it starts to sound like a train is coming through the house when it's on full spin.
First time it happened (just outside of its 1 year warranty) they came and fixed it within a couple of weeks (and charged us for it). I remember it well, as the Hoover-supplied "engineer" left all the concrete pieces, the old drum, boxes and various other bits on our doorstep as he left. I pointed out he'd forgotten them only to be told they're not Hoover's property so not their responsibility to dispose of. Yeah, thanks for that.
But anyway, forward on just over a year later and it's happened again. The concrete that makes up the weight is in bits. Lots of bits. Oh, and lots of dust. It's everywhere. It's now obvious it's an inherent problem with the machine. Looking at the ballast it appears to be concrete of the grade you'd expect in a breeze block. Now I'm now engineer (well, actually I do have a degree in it) but even I know that's not going to last very long.
Whether the machine has an inherent problem or not the fact is Hoover's customer service is truly terrible.
Here's what happened in the five weeks since it broke:
- Rang Hoover "customer services" to tell them it had broken.
- Told them it was the exact same issue as before but they said an "engineer" would need to visit anyway.
- Before this first visit I am forced in to paying for either a £110 labour charge or taking a £159 policy with Domestic & General (D&G) to cover the labour charge and any other repairs for a year. Made sense so I went for the £159 option.
- Wait a week for a man to visit, who takes one look inside the utility room door and say "It's your concrete's gone, love". Yeah, you don't say.
- Man then puts parts on order.
- Wait a week and call. Parts still on order.
- Trouble just about every neighbour on the road to do a load of washing for us.
- Wait a week and call. Parts still on order.
- Trouble just about every neighbour on the road to do a load of washing for us.
- Wait a week and call. Parts still on order.
- Trouble just about every neighbour on the road to do a load of washing for us.
- Decide enough is enough and that we might as well buy a new one for the same cost of the policy.
- Call D&G to cancel policy. They say we can but that we'd be liable to a £90 call-out charge for the man who was charged with coming to point out the obvious.
- Realise they have us by the short and curlies and there's little we can do but wait.
- Wait a week and call. Parts still on order.
- Trouble just about every neighbour on the road to do a load of washing for us.
- Karen calls and get very irate. Not until she point our her 3rd child is due any day now does the lady take pity and decide to lodge an internal complaint and to waiver the call-out fee.
- Three days later they confirm they've cancelled and we have nothing to pay.
- We go to Argos and order the cheapest washing machine we can find.
- Due for delivery next Tuesday. Well over 6 weeks since we stopped using the other.
So we got the refund for the policy, but who won? It certainly doesn't feel like we have! We're just back where we started. No better off and certainly worse off, as we owe all our neighbours a lot of favours.
What we've learnt is that buying a top of the range branded domestic appliance is a complete waste of money. I can't remember exactly what we paid for the washing machine but it was in the region of £400. We did this in the naive belief that it was better and would last.
The machine that it replaced cost Karen about £200 and lasted her about 10 years! When I buy things I have an expected life-span for them. With something like a washing machine it's in the region of 10 years. Certainly not three.
So, what we've done (aside for vowing never to buy Hoover again) is buy a cheapo one instead. As has been pointed out to us recently "They're all just the same plastic crap inside nowadays anyway".
We've bought this new cheap one on the premise that if it breaks outside of the warranty then it is, in effect, disposable. When the cost to repair it equals the cost of a new one what are you supposed to do? As much as I hate the idea of sending the "old" one to the tip, what am I supposed to do?
There are some things in life you take for granted until they break. I didn't realise how much we relied on a washing machine until now. Well, not so much me, but my very pregnant wife who was way more patient with this whole saga than I would have been.
It all leaves me thinking extended warranties and the like are a complete waste of money. Just buy cheap and replace it when broke. I never thought I'd be suggesting such a wasteful idea, but it's the only real option here. Hoover should be ashamed of the terrible, terrible customer service.
In this day and age of consumerism, manufacturers do not make a profit on the actual hardware itself. Where their profit comes from is from Added Services (note, I do not add the "Value" part as normal).
I feel for you with the washing machine debacle. I had a similar issue many years ago when my old one broke. It was well outside the warranty, and the call out fees were almost as much as a new machine anyway. So I went straight for the new one. And then they tried to persuade me that I really needed to spend money on an extra warranty and insurance etc. Plooey to that.
I think there was a TV programme sometime ago (may have been Watchdog or something like that) which asked the questions of whether extra services were worth it in the end. They concluded that they were but only if you weren't prepared to do extra work. If you just wanted to save money then they weren't useful and could cost you dear.
In the 13 years I've been living at my place, I have never bought house contents insurance. Did a check the other day on one of these comparison sites, I have saved myself over £3,000 by NOT buying insurance. Is it money not well spent? Quite possibly.
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Funnily I tweeted (and I know you love that Dragon) not long back
"The only insurance I take out are the ones I have to by law"
http://twitter.com/jakehowlett/status/8650380089
We do have contents insurance as I thought you had to and because it's bundled with house insurance. is it only the latter you must have? If so I'd be happy to cancel the contents part.
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House contents insurance is a bit different than something like an "Extended Warranty" on a $20 toaster.
My contents insurance paid for itself when our 9th floor apartment was broken in to via the balcony (as well as every apartment above and below ours). The only thing that ended up being stolen was my (at the time) 3 year old Powerbook G4, which is the insurance company replaced with the "closest equivalent" which was a just recently released 15" 2.somethingGhz Macbook Pro - so a laptop that was pretty much worthless as far as selling it, replaced with an AU$3,000 one!
My aunty recently had a house fire, and most of their contents was damaged/destroyed - I don't think I'd like to be uninsured for contents in that situation.
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It is just a waste of resources. If the government was serious about the environment it would mandate something like a washing machine, iron, kettle or toaster (i.e. something that will not go obsolete quickly) to come with a complete 10 year guarantee which would make them cost a lot more but would force the manufacturer to make them last. I would not have any trouble spending say £1000 on a washing machine that was guaranteed to last for 10 years. It would also open up a second hand market to if the guarantee was transferable. Washing machine with 5 years left to run - £250 :)
I would also extend the same to cars but maybe even extend it to 15 years. I am completely serious.
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I'm with you on that. I hate throwing things away. It's almost upsetting me to see such a waste of materials.
Jake
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I'm with you too, Dan. I feel I'm getting more and more upset with the 'made-to-break' philosophy for so many comsumer goods these days
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It's true -- they're mostly all just the same plastic crap inside nowadays.
Do you have a similiar service like http://consumerreports.org in the UK, though?
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We have Watchdog on TV and Which? magazine. Probably a website too, but I don;t know of them.
I do feel like spreading the bad word though, so if anybody knows where I can log my complaints...
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Two words - built-in Obsolescence. From cars to computers.
It's the rare product that is built to last nowadays.
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Agree with all the conclusions you've come to. Buy the cheapest model that works for you, and consider it disposable. We had a gasket go on our dishwasher that was causing an intermittent leak. Just a cheap little rubber gasket, but required a special tool to replace. Our appliance guy was out for somethign else, and we asked him to look at it. He just shook his head and said by the time we paid his hourly on top of the parts, we might as well buy another cheap dishwasher. (We put a rug under the corner that leaks.)
Nobody has mentioned, and it is worth mentioning, that you don't have to throw them away. I don't know how it works over there, but in the US if you put something out roadside with a "free" sign on it, someone will usually pick it up the same day. OOr list it in the classifieds. The people who pick these up usually run a business in used goods. They order the parts themselves, fix it, and then sell it. (Or keep it for themselves.) This way it gets "recycled".
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I share your horror at throwing away machinery, especially large items such as TVs, washing machines, cars, etc.
I live in an area with very hard water, and I've only had 2 washing machines in 18 years. One of those machines moved house 3 times. And the current machine is sitting on an uneven floor, is about 4 years old and still seems to be in very good condition. The machine is used about 5 times a week.
What I did was to use the public library to go through back issues of "Which?" magazine to find their reports on washing machines. The best washing machines were AEG and Bosch (quelle surprise), but Zanussi came third (and were significantly cheaper). Both Zanussi machines I bought have lasted very well - they cost less than £400 each.
It's also worth reading the small print of your contents insurance policy. The last one I looked it basically said that if it was possible for someone to break into your home without kicking the door down, or without removing the glass from the window, then you weren't covered. I've been without contents insurance for 10 years now.
I never take out consumer durable insurance -- except for Applecare for my powerbook. The consensus was that it is necessary (and in my case was necessary - it was the only laptop I've had that stopped working within a couple of years).
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I feel your pain, Jake. I've found that doing research ahead of time is the best way to go. Here in the US there are tons of reputable reviews available on all sorts of consumer products, led by ConsumerReports.org. Both Pam and I are in the habit of doing research before we buy just about anything over $50. We've bought a range, a dishwasher, a refrigerator, and a washer and dryer over the last eight years or so.
The only ones we've been unhappy with are the washer & dryer, and that's because we relied on feedback from family rather than doing proper research.
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With the price of scrap metal these days I'm sure someone would pick it up for you - maybe even give you a little cash.
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I've always been told by 'older generation' domestic appliance engineers to buy Bosch, or indeed stick to German engineering wherever possible. Spent a lot of money (>£1000) buying dishwasher & washing machine in 2002, and both appliances have been working beautifully ever since. Not sure if that's a recommendation or not, but I'm very happy to have had so-far eight years of very hard usage without a single service/repair visit.
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Some brands are worth it. Our Fisher & Pykel doesn't have ballast, instead it has a rather remarkable motor called the "Smart Drive" which does all the hard work. Its remarkable because not only is it reliable, but its also quite cheap to manufacture. Think of it like a huge stepper motor. 14 years on, the only thing we've done is replaced the suspension mechanisim last year but the rest is still going strong. I believe that Westinghouse licenced Smart Drive for use in their own machines.
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Here in New Zealand, we have a law called the 'Consumer Guarantees Act'.
It's main provision is that goods must last a reasonable length of time. 'Reasonable' is deliberately left open - the act doesn't specify what's reasonable for any particular item. If this case had happened in New Zealand, both repairs would have been fully covered - 3 years would not be considered a reasonable life. The law is in addition to any warranty the manufacturer might give.
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There are various similar things here in the UK. One of them states that goods must be "fit for purpose" and you can get a refund if not. This stinks to me of being unfit for its purpose. I've got a million better things to do though than chase the paperwork.
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Indeed there are few things that are built to last these days. But my AEG washing machine still works (now for eleven years) without a problem.
I also made good deals with buying rather old cars equipped with all extras (BMW, Mercedes) that are designed to last long instead of buying way newer cars for the same price. Sometimes an 8 year old luxury car may last longer than a brand new Dacia for the same price. But a new Nissan definitely can be a great car, too ;-)
A great problem is that the costs for polluting the environment are still not included in the price for a product. Therefore it is often cheaper to buy real crap and renew it from time to time than to get some real quality thing.
Worst thing ever was the german 'Abwrackprämie' where myriads of used cars in a great condition where disposed just in order to sponsor the car industry.
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I should have known to buy German.
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One thing that has improved is that with the wonders of the internet you can now buy the parts and find instructions for fixing most common problems with domestic appliances and cars etc.
I replaced the heating element of my washing machine a few years ago which probably wasn't worth getting professionally fixed and it is still going strong.
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Funnily enough the broken parts were still under guarantee. You'd think that would mean they could send me new ones I could fit them. Oh no. You have to pay the labour charge for their "engineer" to do it. Guarantees just aren't worth squat.
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Here in Switzerland, the local obsession with quality means that you tend to have really really good machines, mostly done by local, swiss companies. No 1 is V-Zug
http://www.vzug.ch/v-zug/internet.nsf/vPageID/home_en
and Miele, and some of Electrolux.
These machines are ugly, but are of the kind of solid build you usually find in laundromats. They also get used a lot more, since it is very common to have a block of flats share a common washing machine and dryer in the basement. (Seriously)
Here at least, with products of this quality, it makes sense to pay the money.
There is a german saying here which might be appropriate : Ich bin zu arm, um billig zu kaufen - I am too poor to buy cheap products.
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I've heard a similar saying to that -- "I can't afford cheap". Not sure it applies in this case though.
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Our washing machine is the only item I've taken out one of those "extended warranty's" on in Comet that they hassle you about. Mainly because TV's etc., don't have violently moving parts. It worked out quite well because we've called the engineer out a couple of times for it and they've done it all free of charge and fairly quickly.
On a side note, our Dyson vacuum finally blew up the other week (after ~9 years) and I almost got another one because that one was so good. However in the end I bought a £30 one from Argos and it's brilliant. Sounds like a jet fighter when you turn it on, and the suction is quite scary. I just couldn't make myself spend the cash on a Dyson when I thought "I could buy 10 of these for the price of 1 Dyson if I need to". I'm generally of the opinion you tend to get what you pay for (up to a certain point) but this made me slightly reconsider.
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I feel your pain about purchasing decision (I now just buy cheap and disposable for lots of power tools) but the bigger issue here is about the effect of poor service on the brand. Don't they care?
I can understand that for cheaper products and brands, the company may not care but for these large purchases surely they want (1) return business and (2) word of mouth referrals.
Our games console recently died after 14 months (ie. no longer in warranty). I rang the service number (in India) and without me having to jump up and down the person immediately said they would repair it for free, with no shipping costs, and another 12 months warranty on top. Sure, they have had problems with the console, but it was nice to get such good service.
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Oh dear. I know where you're coming from. My Hoover washing machine has been on its last legs since Christmas, sometimes working and sometimes not heating the water up. But I oughtn't complain as I bought it second hand in 1998 for £70 and the machine was about 15 years old then!! My new LG is amazing. It also cost almost 10 times more (including extended warranty - what was I thinking?!) but uses less water and less electricity and cos the load is so much bigger, less time for me (2 loads at once) and less powder. It's so quiet I think it's stalled. It's quick too, and has useful features like I can change the temp and spin speed and delay timer. Which I use. I don't believe in paying for gimmicks I don't use.
If the only thing that's wrong is the concrete weight, find a new home for it that isn't the tip. There are loads of 2-3 year old hoover washers on ebay with faults like that for around £50. I know, cos I was going to get one (without a fault) off ebay at one point - they went for £70-£150. Someone else with one with a different fault and some knowledge can get a working machine from the two for very little money, and you know you aren't littering the environment with potential rust.
I can't speak for their customer service, but I know someone who worked for Hoover as a service engineer for years in the late 80s/ early 90s. He was pushed to sell extra parts to unsuspecting customers, and left as this didn't fit in with his morals. I've only ever had Hoover washing machines, and have always had great stuff to say for them. Guess (hope) you were unlucky.
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The problem seems to me that in the "olden days" (>15 or so years ago), you could use price as a shortcut to determine the quality of an item. High price = high quality. Not so any more. Thanks to the wonders of rubbish Chinese "cheap" manufacturing, we get a rubbish product made with a famous brand slapped on it and the brand and high price fools us in to thinking we're getting a better product.
I for one am completely fed up. Something has to change.
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