St George's Day
Today is St George's Day, which is dedicated to the patron saint of England. The occasion normally passes me by (and most of the country for that matter), but has got me thinking this time round about what it means to be English, as I just spent three days mountain biking in Wales.
Wales - for those who don't know - is a part of the United Kingdom (UK), as is England. It's also part of Great Britain, which is formed by England, Scotland and Wales. Add Northern Ireland to this and you have the United Kingdom. As I understand it England and Scotland are countries in their own right, whereas Wales is a principality. Confusing isn't it.
Anyway, this weekend the same bunch of us who previously went MTBing in Scotland made our way to Wales. As with Scotland an Englishman travels to Wales expecting a frosty reception. Although we're a "united" kingdom it seems the thing uniting Wales and Scotland is their hatred of the English. Or at least that's what you're led to believe.
On my travels to both countries I've always found the people I've met to be extremely welcoming and friendly. Although I guess they should be as most of the people you meet on any trip are in the hospitality trade and so, by definition, should be.
What I don't doubt is there are people in both Wales and Scotland who really do hate us, the English. It always make me wonder though. What exactly is their problem? Sure, we doubtless did many wrongs in the past, but that was then and this is now. What makes me laugh is the idea that I - the common Englishman - am somehow to answer for the actions of my country in the past. It's no more excusable than the attitude some Englishmen have towards the Germans. If I met a German I wouldn't dream of holding them responsible for their country's wrongs in the more recent past.
Not that any of it will stop me returning to either Wales or Scotland in the future, as the riding their is amazing. Not sure I'm going to be celebrating my Englishness today though.
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I think the Scots may have a more recent cause re the revenues from North Sea oil. I think that if all of the revenue had gone to them they would be one of the richest countries in Europe.
The Welsh may have a similar complaint re Charlotte Church's income tax.
Good post, and I hope you get some good discussion out of it - hopefully from some people from Wales and Scotland.
Being from the U.S., I have the same questions/thoughts... as it seems most of the world hates the U.S. !
Well, you'd think it would be something like oil revenue, but in truth that never got mentioned while I was working in Aberdeen for a year (which at the time was Oil Central in Scotland).
It seemed to me, to come down to a feeling that England was dominant and Scotland got ignored. The examples given are in political decisions, such as having the Poll Tax put on them first, or the fact the TV is very England focused, etc.
In all honesty though, what really seemed to piss them off the most was the fact, that by and large, the English don't overly care. We just think they should get the chip of their shoulder - but I tend to think this way a lot when another country moans about a different one as if everything is that other countries fault, etc.
It could actually be argued now that England is slowly getting a bad deal, as Scotland and Wales have some level of devolved power while England doesn't have that and is left with the UK parlimentary body, which has Scottish and Welsh people voting. This wouldn't have normally bothered me, and didn't historically, but now I can't help but think we should go totally federal and have devolved power for all.
You know what the irony is? Whenever I travel I say I'm from the UK? When my nationality is asked for I say I'm British? Nationalism or strange 'nationlist-style' arguments have always been lost on me. I'm happy to even be seen as European.
Still, the way things are going I'm sort of disapointed I'm starting to wonder why don't have an English parliament.
Jake you make it sound like the dislike is one way but there are English people who hate the Scots & Welsh too. Also, to make your comments fair and well rounded you have to add that most Europeans dislike English people too.
I don't dislike anyone but I can understand why some people have these feelings, for example, when Sebastian Coe won Olympic gold, he was described as an English athlete but when Allan Wells won Olympic gold he was described as a British athlete not a Scottish athlete. It's this sort of attitude that fuels feelings of dislike between the home nations.
Also, I lived and worked in England for a few years and the one thing which really annoyed me about English people, where shop assistants who refused to accept British currency notes which had bank of Scotland on them stating that they weren't legal tender. One shop assistant asked me if it was monopoly money, honestly! OMFG...
Gerry, to be blunt, I think it is the arrogant, 'we are superior' attitude that endears the U.S. to the rest of the world...
There's a bit more of a US parallel. Here, there are people in the Southern states who are still, over a century later, are institutionally sore at us "Northerners" (I'm in New York), because they lost the American Civil War (or, as they defiantly call it, the "war between the states"). It always amazes me when I see it, too.
I guess we all still have some growing up to do.
This stuff has to do with over-generalizations and they are allways wrong.
Reading stuff from the 19th/first half of 20th century, I think its quite obvious that in our time this nationalist issues have become far less serious. In the 19th/first half of the 20th century a lot more seemingly really believed that certain unchangeable attitudes and properties were bound to belonging genetically to a certain "nation". Probably even more so in latecomers in nation building like Germany.
Last month due to the peacefull death of my great Grandma, I've read a lot about history of the far eastern parts of Germany (now part of Poland). She was from there.
Prejudices were and are stronger in the border regions. For example according to the books a lot of Germans in the far easter parts of Germany had much stronger prejudices against polish people and slavic people in general.
From a logical standpoint, this completly contradicts their own origin. As polish or baltic family names were very common among them and they very often simply looked like polish, baltic or russian people. Definitedly not all, but a lot of them just wanted to belong to the group dominant at the time and betrayed their real family roots by being extra-anti-polish.
But once we visited with my Grandma the village she is from and she happily talked friendly with an old polish woman who worked during the war on her farm and since after 1946 owned the house of other german expelled people in the village. There was no hate between them and they have really gone through historically "interesting" times.
Or I've heard that strange insider story from the Domino Workflow team. This product was first developed by a small german consulting in the east of Westfalia. Of course, for such a great product they had to pick only the best. The developers came from a lot of different countries. Among them was a russian who recently finished his studies in St. Petersburg. I worked with him years later.
As we all might guess, the conception, design and development of an unfailable product like DWF needs an over-average team spirit. And so they were all drinking heavily 1 or 2 times a week. There also worked a guy from Afganistan. And after some beers he regularly started bullying the Russians: "What have you done with our people. You evil Russian". Without beer he was a nice guy towards anybody russian or not. None of Russians and neither there families played any role in the Afgan war.
I am sure people could rant for pages on this subject, if it is generalized to why people don't like other people. I am an America, but have traveled to over 40 countries and have lived most of the past 14 years outside the US. Some of what I have seen in the case of the US is that:
A) The media in the US don't let the average American know what other viewpoints there are on most international events. This leads to silly beliefs like "they hate us for our freedom/liberty".
B) US companies have done a fair bit of damage to local environments, economies, and people over the decades and the animosity towards them can transfer to the US itself.
C) Too many politicians are too concern for their own political careers and privileges to really support doing the right thing.
I think the ideals and values that went into the creation of the US, as summarized in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and The Bill of Rights, are great but that over the years the people who are swearing to uphold the Constitution and Bill of Rights haven't done an ideal job. But what are you going to do, that's not a new human behavior <insert and open can of worms here> just look at the worlds religions.
Jake,
I would go even further into the past. Don't forget that the welsh, scots, and irish are celts, and english are, more or less, german invaders who came in droves in the 800s (Jutes, Angles, Saxons).
I find great differences in these two tribes. I find celts generally warmer, have a quicker temper, and english, well, not. The languages also belong to different families - english is, like it or not, a germanic language, and scottish, welsh, and irish are together with breton, cornish, manx and (perhaps) basque, celtic languages.
The differences run really deep, and are really old - and, in my opinion, nations or people very often define not only themselves around common traditions (for instance, all celts have some sort of grisly bagpipes), but also very defining is what one is *not*, or who "the enemy" is. In this case, I would argue that the celts in GB have identified England, or the english, as being "the enemy" or "the foreigners", whereas the English have culturally always considered the *French* to be "the enemy" - which I would explain is the reason why englishmen are always mildly surprised to sense celtic animosity.
Add to this that the UK is unique in Europe as one of the countries that has the biggest historical continuity and as such a historical hindsight which is unparalleled. No revolutions, no napoleon, no invaders - quite an unique perception of oneself.
Andrew Magerman
(half English, half Belgian, brought up in France, studied in Switzerland, France and England, works in German-speaking part of Switzerland)
my last posting in this thread:
Anti-Americanism has certainly gone way too far in the last years. Now that I can watch Fox News over the internet, I have heavy doubts if this prograpaganda helps to get a balanced point of view. But its also questionable, if the average european does care so much about the true standpoints of other people.
Brothers of one of my Grandpa emigrated to the US and every 5 years or so one of their Grandchildren comes over here. And from what the last visitor told, especially among young people they are confronted with very negative attitudes. Thats very sad. 1st they are not responsible for the politics of their Government and 2nd at large and despite all black episodes the US did really a lot to foster and save democracy, prosperity and a free press for a lot of countries.
In a cinema close to my department they also show turkish movies. I don't understand turkish, but from the posters you guess that they play in Iraq and you see allways a bunch of smart looking turkish guys and a lot of boneheaded american soldiers. I have heavy doubt if this media shows the spectators the true viewpoints of american soldiers or people.
*sigh* this is the process of labour devolution strengthened by the nationalist surge in pockets across the country aided by the media which helps the governments efforts to devolve power to their 'base' in scotland - the sooner we vote against this - and the government - the better. Watch what happens when Blair and his cronies 'retire'... we are already starting to see the effects of devolution on the economy - it is only masked by the inflated pay packets of the financial markets.
I remember an old description of the constituent races of the United Kingdom. It goes: The Scots keep the Sabbath and anything else they can lay their hands on, the Welsh pray on their knees and their neighbours, the Irish don't know what they're fighting for but are willing to die for it, while the English consider themselves to be a race of self-made men, thus relieving God of a dreadful responsibility . . .
Don't get me started!! As an Englishman in Scotland, I have many accounts of 'friendly' racism which generally manifests itself around football tournaments. Before coming here, I was completely unaware of the feelings the Scots had for the English until the 2002 World cup. Working in Glasgow, I went to watch a lunchtime game of England v Argentina in one of the local pubs. Imagine my surprise when I found myself amongst a group of Glaswegians dressed in Argentinian strips. I hate to bring up the past but were there not a number of Scots regiments fighting in the Falklands not so long ago? Of those not dressed up, the majority cheered on Argentina as if they were their own. Discussing this with my Scottish colleagues later, I informed them that, from my own experience, most English fans would support all of the other home countries almost as much as England and that it shocked me to see this. The response I generally get when I talk to people about it is that it's because of the commentators gushing on about how great the England team is and how they 'will' win the competition. I do find this rather a lame excuse and I'd much rather they say they just don't like us! (not that I think that but surely a handful of commentators (including Alan Hansen!!) shouldn't have that sort of effect). Anyway, I hope my 3 Scottish children won't hate me when they are older just because of some commentators.
PS. England won that game and there were a few silly looking Argentiniscots left quietly sipping their beer in the corner.
PPS Having said all that, I'd never want to leave because I love it here.
As a walking mixture of heritage myself, I find animosity in general at once confusing and understandable. My ancestry roots in Native Americans, Germans, Scots and Englishmen. The recent and historic conflicts between these people are understandable in hindsight, and confounding in most present contexts.
The tension here in the US between Natives and the White man today go in two directions - Natives building casinos on tribal lands within States that have statutory law against casinos, or Natives living on reservations in perpetual entitlement non-growth stagnation. On one end, unbridled capitalism, on the other, the worst end of Socialism. A microcosm of what Europe appears to be going through from our perspective over here. Sweden and Great Britain holding out against the Euro seems like good capitalism to most of us while the steady march towards entitlement policies seems doomed to failure as the system is overtaxed by unbridled immigration. Stifling state regulations on guns, property and income seem bound to suffocate western civilization only to see it swamped by eastern civilization.
Ancient bloodlines are becoming less important than what we do to, and with, each other today. In the post-post-modern era, we have to ask ourselves where we want to be in 50 years and stop letting politicians (and philosophers) decide it for us as they are demonstrably self interested and notoriously ill equipped to do so.
I think loyalty to one's tribe was a survival trait once upon a time. That's still the strongest motivator for soldiers; to die rather than let the men down in your immediate unit.
I think humans are hard wired to make these kinds of judgments at a visceral, emotional, unconscious level. I am aware that I have these unreasoned reactions to many things. When I'm aware of them I can ignore them (when I choose) and take actions based on rational thought.
I also know that there are many of these unreasoned reactions that I'm not aware of or that I become aware of latter. My goal is to become more aware of these things.
Awareness is the first step to change.
Peace,
Rob:-]
As an interesting addition to Andrew Magermans's comments above about Celts vs. Saxon invaders, the words "England"/ "English" are derived from the names of the invaders - the 'Angles'. The Welsh word for "the English" is "Saesnaeg" or "Saes" for short (pron. 'Si-sneag'), which basically means "Saxon invader". I believe that the Scottish word for the English "Saesenach" is similar.
Speaking as someone who is of Welsh, Scottish and American descent, but who has an English accent, raised in England and then Wales and who has live for 4 years in Scotland I am a tad confused!
However, supporting any side who is playing against Enlgand (even the French!) is no different in my mind to people supporting different football teams for example. Although there are deep roots as to the reason for this, in general it is more or less harmless rivalry.
When I was being raised in Wales (and attending a Welsh-speaking school) it was at a time when the holiday homes of absent English were regularly burnt down, but as with all the trouble of the world, this was down to an extreme minority group.
The Welsh generally have more of a chip on their shoulder about the Englsh and are protective of their language and culture; the Scotts are more laid back about the relationship because they know that they are superior!! ;-)
I used to work in Aberdeen for a year, and I had some interesting experiences. Like another poster above, I had no idea of the rivalry and animosity until I lived there.
There was a pivotal national game, and I can't remember if it was actually England v Scotland, but after the match the fans where roaming the streets of Aberdeen making all sorts of comments against the English. I was actually quite please that fact I was English was a function of my accent and not my skin colour at that point. It was the closest I came to understanding racism anyway. Honest, I'm a upstanding bloke and everything, not usually bothered by these things, but it was unnerving.
Then the humorous story I always tell about watching Braveheart in Scotland...and the 5 minute standing ovation it got at the end. Very funny.
Is it, in fact, possible to dislike (or 'hate') an entire race?
The English, traditionally, 'hate' the French but many buy their retirement homes there. Perhaps some ignorant English people 'hate' the fact that when we speak English to a Frenchman (in France) we get a frosty reception. I speak a smattering of school boy, phrase book French and always get a positive response - and then an English conversation! Perhaps that's on the basis that 'I tried' but it's obvious I don't speak French and they help me out.
I've heard anecdotal stories of an entire pub switching to Welsh when an Englishman walks in, but these inflammatory stories cannot be trusted either.
I have no feelings one way or another for a Welsh person, Scotsman or German - I certainly don't have a broad, race-based dislike for any of them.
The Neanderthal, football lout attitude of, say, Scotsmen towards Englishmen is no different to that of English louts towards ethnic minorities in England. A vocal minority not representing the true state of affairs at all!
I've never had any kind of racism directed at me in Wales, France or Germany - I've not visited Scotland but I can't believe for a minute it would be any different.
@Brian Miller:
You make it sound as if institutionalized tension between the US North and South stems entirely from the American Civil War (or as it was often called in my parts, The War of Northern Aggression) or that it is entirely one-sided. Certainly Southerners' attitudes towards the North (particularly the Northeast Atlantic states) worsened immediately at the end of the American Civil War with the arrival of carpetbaggers, but those tensions predated the war and extended well beyond the lines of abolitionists vs. plantation owners.
But more than that, this tension is hardly one-sided: the American South is generally derided as backward, racist, and redneck.
I live in Newport Wales, and I have been living here for three years and in Wales on and of for about 12. I do find people here have aterrible chip on their shoulder. I work in a factory environement where there are many different workers from different parts of the world and the attitudes between all are worlds apart. americans are the most courteous and relaxed and always a pleasure to deal with. But the welsh are terrible as I am a young woman I get very odd reactions from the men constantly they are either trying to wind me up but not in a fun way a kind of nasty way trying to be demeaning sort of way I can usually deal with it though- or they will treat me with contempt or slightly sleazily. Most of the welsh women who work here have been quite off with me and it has taken almost a year for them to accept me although I am a competant hard working obbliging individual. I am a artist and I always wear tastefully selectd attire always appropriate but often at couture of the 1960 and tailored well and i love to dress interstingly and with an individual flair. I am looked at with distaste and when I wore a pair of tartan trousers the other day not really that unusual I was asked by a scot if i wore it for a dare which I found quite rude seeing as he hasnt spoken to me for a year only to say that. The welsh seem to handle woman very supiciously the English here just treat me like I believe they should the scots a bit of the cuff however the eastern europeans make me feel a bit uneasy as they look but never say anthing but I find the welsh like this as well. I have found the welsh from the north to be more friendlier to me than those from the South I have an american accent as I was brought up there born in Ireland and have lived in several countries over the past seventeen years, I feel international rather than nationalistic. however when I was told by some horrible welsh people that america had it coming when 9/11 happened I was shocked but put it down to too much time in the past working in the mines and not much else.